Topic: Women Imams – To Lead or Not To Lead
Displaying all 21 posts.
Post #1
Muhammad Irfan Khuhro wroteon January 2, 2010 at 9:00pm
A very interesting debate is going on in the Islamic World and its about if women can be Imams or not. The debate is age-old and is not confined to just Islam. Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism also advocates and encourages Male Priesthood. Islam is unique in the sense that as Muslims we believe that this Religion has been sent by Allah Subhanota’la or in simple English – God. Share your ideas and knowledge about it.

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Post #2
Ali Sabeer wroteon January 3, 2010 at 2:30am
Very good Topic and Timely.

Quran clearely states that men are protectors and maintainers of women ,therefore Women cannot be Imams in anyway.

As far as I m concerned Islam is giving greater Emphsais to Justice than equality ,here when you see the title one will come to a conclusion , that this is a issue of equal rights. which is not.

Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different. In another words assigning something you are capable of.Which means giving each one that to which he or she is entitled.

“Verily, Allaah enjoins Al‑‘Adl (i.e. justice)”

[al-Nahl 16:90]

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means”

[al-Nisa’ 4:34]

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Post #3
Shabzana Ahmed wroteon January 3, 2010 at 2:52am
Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) narrates from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) that he said: The best rows for men are the first rows, and the worst ones are the last ones. The best rows for women are the last ones, and the worst ones for them are the first ones. (Sahih Muslim, no: 440)

I believe men and women should not be segregated, but the women should be in the same room at the back, like the time of rasoolallah صلى الله عليه و سلم that is what i personally believe.

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Post #4
Muhammad Irfan Khuhro wroteon January 3, 2010 at 8:15am
Hadeeth is of Abu Hurrairah(r.a) in muslim which says that best rows for women are in the back and worse rows are in front. I think It does not forbid women from praying in front rows neither to lead as Imam. – it just uses the word “best”.

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Post #5
Shabzana Ahmed wroteon January 3, 2010 at 4:37pm
Why would you want to be amongst the worse???

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Post #6
Mahmood Alam wroteon January 3, 2010 at 4:38pm
Imamate to a Woman from the pages of Muslim history

Harūrīyyah: One of more than 20 different sub-sects. However, the major sub-sects of the Kharijites are nine:

Ghazāla al-Harūriyya (Arabic: غزالة الحرورية) was the wife of Habib ibn-Yazīd al-Harūrī, founder of the Harūriyya sect of Kharijite Islam, which held that it is permissible to entrust the imamate to a woman if she is able to carry out the required duties.
Ghazāla commanded troops, following in the footsteps of previous Muslim women like Juwayriyya bint al-Ḥārith at the Battle of Yarmuk. In one battle, she put the famous Umayyad general Hajjāj ibn-Yūsuf to flight.

The Harūrī (Arabic: الحرورية) were an early Muslim sect from the period of the Four Rightly-Guided Caliphs (632-661 CE), named for their first leader, Habīb ibn-Yazīd al-Harūrī. The Harūrī were one branch of the Khārijī “Rejectors” movement, so called because they rejected ‘Alī’s right to the Caliphate. While originally members of the “Party of ‘Alī”, they turned against him when he agreed to arbitration regarding the issue of leadership and a Harūrī , Abd-al-Rahman ibn Muljam, assassinated ‘Alī while he was praying on 19 Ramaḍān in 661 CE. with a stroke of his poison-coated sword. Ali, wounded by the poisonous sword, lived for two days before dying in Kufa on the 21st of Ramadan in 661.[95]

for mote information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_as_imams

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Post #7
Mahmood Alam wroteon January 5, 2010 at 3:26pm
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
How many Muslim know this Fact.
How do you deal with this situation.

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Post #8
Shakil Shakil Shakil (University of East London) wroteon January 5, 2010 at 5:14pm
Peace..

This question is a good question..1st of all when someone greets you, u must reply the greeting in the same manner or even better..

The Hadiths main is to tell the female to pray in the home, because when they are in the home and far from the Mosque they get the full reward a Muslim male gets for being in congregation which is 27 rewards..if a muslim man prays alone he gets only 1 reward or maybe none if he intentionly misses a prayer in congregration when is easily able to go without a good enough excuse..

Back to your question.. Women are not allowed to lead for many reasons nor are they allowed in the rows because it distracts the man from prayer…I.e. some women dress inapropriately and if anyone prayed next to her he wouldnt be able to concentrate. Also when women bow down it would attract some males even if they are covered that is why women are told to pray behind the man…Imagen i prayed next to your mother id be touching her shoulder, now would u want me to touch your mother/sister/wifes/daugher shoulder while in prayer? NO… Remember the prophet pbuh hs also said it is better to have a needle go through your head then to touch the female..

The reasons why women and men are seperated today in other countries is because the dress of ‘some’ women…they are ‘Not’ wearing the proper islamic covering, instead they were tight/revealing cloths with a scarf.

Allah said he will not change the situation of this ummah until the people change themselves…

Peace

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Post #9
Sanela Lalic wroteon January 5, 2010 at 9:26pm
Salaam–
I would love to see more sisters enter the world of islamic scholarship as to be able to study Muslim women’s rights under Islam and not particularly for the purpose of being an imam. Considering the abuses that are going on against Muslim women in certain societies, I think Muslim women scholars of Islam is urgently needed. Our sisters in certain societies have been discouraged to participate in researching, learning and advocating the principles provided from the Sunnah and Qur’an which, I personally believe, have resulted in male monopoly over various issues when it comes to Muslim women’s role and participation in society.
In a sense, we are all imams, as we are all going to be questioned for our own individual practice of Islam. The better we get as Muslims, the better off we are.

I also believe women and men should not be segregated. In my homeland, the way people used to pray was men were in the first rows, women were behind them usually on balconies in the mosques. They were phsyically separated if you will, but there were no separate exits, no screens/walls separating them. They had the opportunity to pray together with men in mosques and could listen to imams speak.

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Post #10
Abdul Majid wrote23 hours ago
@ Mahmood Alam

The Kharijites are not accepted as mainstream Muslims, in some cases as not even Muslim.

You don’t have to waste your time dealing with them or the fact that they have had women leading them.

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Post #11
Zoheb Ahmed wrote22 hours ago
Sahih Bukhary;
Abu Bakara narrated the messenger of God said; “Any community whose leader is a woman will never succeed”

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Post #12
Shujah Qureshi wrote21 hours ago
Assalam o Alaikum wr wb

God bless u all ..
this is good topic is good..
nw if islam has not allowd muslims womens to lead it doenst means that women are degraded …as i recieved an objection on dis very point

Islam belives in equality …but most of the it happens that the words same and equality are mixed ….
as men and women are not same in physical nature so roles and responsibilties are differentiated accordingly..
and i believe this is favour of islam on muslim women that it has not posted the burden of leading on women,..
also islam has xempted women from financial responsibilities and like this …. one more point that if women stands in front row, r lead ,.r stay along with men ,,,then prayers wont be possible with satisfied mind ,,as ALLAH has put attraction in opposite gender ..
so it could be severly harmful for the integrity of such sacred religious obligation..

stay blessed

payers requested

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Post #13
Shabzana Ahmed wrote21 hours ago
Saneal lalic

Absolutely agree with you.
we need more women teaching and learning about islam.
“teach a man and you teach a man, teach a woman and you teach a nation”

And about the prayers, totally agree with you again, men and women should not be segregated in different rooms, but should be done as the sunnah permits, but the exit for women was actually prescribed for the women, thats the only difference, makes for less hassle. (i believe)

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Post #14
Shujah Qureshi wrote21 hours ago
now technicallly writing ,,i dont aggree with saneal on the point that there should be no separte entrance r exit,,

as i wrote in co enviroment most probably the integrity of dis religious obligation can be affected..

i agree to saneal on the point the mens in first rows women in last , but i want to give more grace to women by making a partition for men and women ,,its asking of respect and i dont want a free club enviroment in Masjid …

and rightly so ,,
women can listen imam very well behing the walls even , ( sound system ) spearate entrace and exit and separte place for making abolution …

stay blessed

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Post #15
Ken Casanova wrote16 hours ago
Women continue to strugle for their rights. While male dominated religions continue to impose the rules for women. This repression is always justified by religious pronouncement that God wants it that way.

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Post #16
Shabzana Ahmed wrote13 hours ago
Sorry, disagree with shujah.

Men and women should be in the same room and should make salat the way prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم did.

Men at the front and women at the back, SIMPLE!!!!!

We are not completely immature that we are going to start prancing around in the masjid and make it into some sort of club astagfirullah.
Mind women are more on their guard and watch their mannerisms more so when men are around, that is what i have personally found, espc, in regards to the sisters who attend the masjid on a regular basis for the sake of ALLAH.

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Post #17
Ali Sabeer wrote12 hours ago
@Ken

You have to produce facts for your opnion here, thats post some life xamples where womens rights have taken, injustification ,repression under the Sharia Law.

We agree there should not b male aggression, free thinking equal rights etc.. etc.. and if these situation arise in a Muslim country you just point at ISlamic Sharia where the country s Law is not Islamic .There may b Muslim countries, Muslim Leaders all over the World but, who the hell said, Sharia Law is their Official Jurisprudence , they are still under colonial inherited laws.

UK govenrmrnt has given authority to schools Ban on Muslim face veil (violating a basic human right) B cause the person covered by veil is an alien that British teachers cant interact with. I like to ask Ken under which Orthodox religion that this rule is implemented on school girls.

I request Ken to first study Islamic Law and then start a convrsation with Evidences b cos Islam emphasisez reason and evidence more than any other thing.

These are Words of Mere Utterance for some people DOMINATION, REPRESSION,STRUGGLE
should carry more value with evidence.

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Post #18
Ken Casanova wrote12 hours ago
In Iran, laws made by elected officials can be overridden by the supreme Aiyatolla who is a elected by a handfull of clerics and ensures that no one violates God’s laws. In the US, public schools can enforce dress standards for students, administrators and faculty which some religions find offensive. Religious practices are not permitted in public schools. Private schools can adhere to differnent standards of dress and prayer provided it does not violate our laws and constitution. For example, if Abraham lived in the US and God told him he should kill his son, we would arrest him.

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Post #19
Aisha-Cheri Mawar wrote12 hours ago
A woman can study Alima, but never ever become a Imaam.
There’s a hadith but i cannot remember who narrated it or what the exact words are but it was to the effect that ” The day of Judgement is near when women lead the salaat”

“Men and women should be in the same room and should make salat the way prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم did.”

Don’t most Masjid’s do this except there is a screen between men and women, because Non Mahram aren’t allowed to see our Auroah.

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Post #20
Ken Casanova wrote12 hours ago
Women can’t become priests in the Roman Catholic Church. But, in the US that is a private matter. Orthodox Jewish women have to shave their heads. But, as a matter of public policy and constitutional rights in the US, women can not be required to adhere to such practices, cannot be prohibited from holding public office, etc. This is the essence of separation of church and state.

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Post #21
Shujah Qureshi wrote12 hours ago
Shabzana Ahmed ( yes dont have problem with dis is procedure,
men in front and women in back
wall in between will be preferable,,

its matter of mahram and other wise
,
maturity has nothing to do wid dis ( like if some one drinks ,,at starts it affects alot ,,but as he get use to of it den affect is minimized..not dis cant b justified dat now after drinking he remains in his sense nw alcohal has become allowed)
simple logic

western society has snatched the respect of woman while bring them into bazar,,,on the name of art culture and rights of human being dey just promoting vulgarity …

we muslims respect our sisters ,mothers daughters more den ourselves,…we care for dem more den our lives,,
we are muslims and we are proud to be….

i dont have problem while women being in majis ,,i used to offer prayer in such masjid ,,but tthe enviroment dere use to be absolutely okk…
like no cross interferance with women ,,,cox women used to be downstorey..

maturity doest mean now collaboration has been allowed,,

u got to respect the status of opposti gender..
both gender r equal in respect ,,but dey are not same as role responsiblity are different ,,,,,,
stay blessed

If I refuse to move at all is it because I’m afraid to make a risky change in my life? After all, risk isn’t exactly my middle name. Even when I think about the moves I’ve made to spice it up, I’ve still applied to incredibly strait-laced enterprises. I have a lot more money saved up than many people my age. And yet I still hesitate to do anything drastic.

Although I am understandably hesitant to throw caution to the wind and essentially possibly do great harm to my career (and I do have one of these despite my own frequent protests to the contrary) for love, some day I will have to look back on my life and ask myself how I lived it, and if I lived it. And if I am disappointed in the answer, I will have no one to blame but myself.

This December, I purchased a new laptop – a Macbook Pro 13 inch, which I adore. My old Macbook will be handed up to my mom.

I also paid off my car. I purchased it in July 2007, financed it on a 3 yr plan. So I’m 7 months early yay. It feels good to know I can pocket some extra cash every month.

I have also purchased: a new shower curtain, the Perfect Pushup, a new laundry basket, a throw because it gets cold in the winter, and a duplicate pair of Cole Haan shoes that were deeply discounted, a dress at Sheckys’ Girls Night Out, a bike tire pump, a gift card for my secretary, a small gift card for my roommate, xmas gift for my bf.

And oh yeah I booked a resort hotel in Las Vegas for 5 nights in January for a little vacay with the boy who visiting Amrika.

And I am not done spending! I also want: brown boots, a new printer.

To be fair, I did sell about $350 stuff on eBay and $130 of stuff on Amazon.com. So yeah. And I am selling all my snowboard gear, which will bring a pretty penny. And tomorrow hopefully I’ll get some kind of little bonus (recession style).

How busy will I be now that they fired an associate? I skipped a firm event tonight. Sigh I just can’t be bothered. To purchase alcohol and consume it.

Thxgiving was nice, but too long! We ate Costco chicken and made green bean casserole and sweet potato casserole. I wasn’t invited anywhere by relatives. One of my aunts called, though, and told me my cousin was dating an English dude who lives in Oakland. Random. I ran all my errands, though (car maintenance, laundry, car wash, drop off stuff, etc). Black Friday was horrible. I also brought home all my snowboarding gear…I’m torn over whether to keep it for some hypothetical future snow vacation or just sell it. I mean some day I would like to just spend a week holed up at a snow resort. But when and with whom? Sigh… Lord knows I’ll be spending all my vacays over the pond for the next year probably.

The concern is this. When someone is a fundamentalist Christian, it generally means that they believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible – creationism, no pre-marital sex, no homosexual sex, no abortion. Now where they draw from literal paragraphs to conclusions about gay marriage are a bit more vague. But in general, it is widely understood and agreed that a fundamental Christian, no matter how “fundamental,” will not openly believe, preach, or support the conversion of “non-believers” by physical force, the forcing of non-believers to pay a “tax” to believers, or the establishment of an overarching legal system based on a literal interpretation of the New Testament. While there used to be religious courts in the old old day of Catholocism, those days are past and, as far as I know, there is no movement of any significance by Catholics or Christians to establish a separate legal system or to overthrow existing legal systems and replace it with one based on a literal interpretation of the Old or New Testament. The fact is, whether you believe that Christians truly follow example of Jesus, it is undisputed that Jesus counseled mercy, compassion, and “turning the other cheek.” The Old Testament god was “angry god,” but angry god inflicted his anger directly on humans. “angry god” did not tell a prophet to tell his followers to kill non-believers or that their lives were worth less. So as “kooky” and possibly dumb as even the most leftist liberal might think a fundamentalist Christian is, one cannot objectively point to the most literal teachings of Christianity and see that it advocates violence.

Are there abortion doctors killers? Sure. And are there people who quietly “understand” and even condone these killings? Yes. But such support is not documented as being disturbingly widespread. And there is no basis in the New Testament to say that one who murders in the name of or for Christian principles should be treated less harshly.

I cannot make the same observations of Islam or of most Muslims. By now, I’d estimate that a majority of Americans do not believe the politically correct parroting of the phrase, “Islam is a religion of peace.” How does anyone know that is Islam’s true teaching? Unlike the Catholic church, there is no central authority in Islam so that one would know whether a teaching deviated from the sanctioned teachings. There are no fatwas issued, as far as I know, against Osama bin laden or other terrorists who have, supposedly, “misinterpreted” or “strayed” from the “true” teachings of Islam. The fact is, one person may call themselves Muslim, but enjoy alcohol, pre-marital sex, and even pork. Many Turks, for example, can be said to be very lax Muslims, or perhaps not truly Muslim at all.
After all, if you fail to follow the most important teachings of your religion, are you really of that faith? This is like the question many gay Christians are asked.

Personally, I believe that one should be able to label themselves Muslim, Christian, or feminist without strictly following what a church or more established organization dictates. But this does not really mean much for those Muslims who are harshly judged by militant Muslims. In fact, some like Bruce Bawer theorize that the reason why we have not see many vehement protests against and condemnations of terrorism in the name of Islam by so-called “moderate Muslims” is actually because these so-called moderate Muslims harbor a deep fear that it IS the terrorists who are the truly devout Muslims, and that their devotion lags greatly behind.

And to understand this, one has to NOT refuse to see that there are many passages in the Koran and/or the Hadith that expressly counsel, sanction, or advocate violence in the name of Islam. Terrorists are always absolutely certain they are the true believers and followers. Their certainty is, of course, frightening. But not in the way that one who certainly believes the Earth is round is frightening. But that’s the scary thing about faith versus science. The point is that nobody can dissuade someone like Bin Laden that his “interpretation” is wrong. There is no serious movement in the Islamic world or among their governments to establish some central religious authority.

But even aside from that, look at the countries that practice Islam in what is called its “purest” form. Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Mohammed. If Western liberals/leftists insist that all these terrorists are simply “misinterpreting” Islam (via its sanction of violence against non-believers, its treatment of women), then these same liberals/multiculturalists must also insist until their dying breath that ENTIRE countries are “misinterpreting” Islam. This simply does not hold water.

How do you tell Ireland, for example, that it is “misinterpreting” Catholicism? You may not like, at all, that the Pope is telling Africans not to use condoms, but you would sound pretty damn ridiculous insisting that the Pope is misinterpreting Catholicism. Because if you do, you’re simply saying that, “Hey I think this Catholic teaching is stupid. I think that instead, it should be X.”

In a similar manner, many leftists have the same mistaken attitude toward Islam. When they say that this Imam or the Ayatollah is following a “bad” or “mistaken” interpretation of Islam, they have no support for this belief. They are simply saying that in their world view (one of freedom, individual rights, and human rights), any religious teaching that deviates so greatly from this world view MUST be a misinterpretation of any person’s religion.

The reality, as so amply demonstrated by tons of books by, for example, Robert Spencer, Bruce Bawer, and straight from the Islamic holy books themselves, is that Mohammed is the paragon human, all Muslims should emulate Mohammed, and Mohammed personally killed people to convert them to Islam, kidnapped people, had at least 4 wives including a sexual relationship with a 9 year old girl. By pointing these facts out, nobody is being Islamophobic, which is a strawman by itself.

Obviously, not even the most right wing Fox News loving fans believe that EVERY SINGLE Muslim in the world is a terrorist or could become a terrorist.

No, this concern is, however, a perfectly valid one: there are objectively enough teachings in the Islamic holy books to serve as the basis for a fundamentalism that counsels the domination of Islam above all other religions, the teaching that there is the house of Islam and the house of war (that is, if you are not Muslim, you are subject to conversion by force), and that non-believers should be subjugated to Muslims.

Because these are the literal teachings of Mohammed, a Muslim who may have been “moderate” or non-practicing, is that much more subject to becoming a Fifth Columnist if he or she becomes fundamentalist or radicalized.

The same fears do not materialize about Christians or Buddhists or Hindus or Sikhs or Catholics because EVEN IF they were fundamentalist, there are no literal teachings in their religions that counsel the same violence and domination of non-believers that exists in the teachings of Islam.

The saying is that not every Muslim is a terrorist, but pretty much every terrorist is a Muslim. The multicultural, PC, leftist crowd would like you to believe this is some kind of a coincidence. But it is not. A true Muslim would say that it is every Muslim’s duty to take up a sword against non-Muslims and those who impinge upon the House of Islam.

Good luck finding a “true” even “radical” Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or Catholic who believes the same.

Right now, politicians around the world are walking a fine line in what they say about Islamic terrorism. Obama is stretching his hand out so far that it’s sore. In the UK, the establishment bends over backwards to demonstrate to the Muslim community and to Islamic countries that nobody intends any disrespect toward Muslims simply because they are Muslim. All this is nice and expected of liberal Western societies. But, in the end, it will do little good except assuage the consciences of liberal Western societies.

The ordinary people of America and Europe are well and fed up with the exaggerated demands of a religious group that asks the U.S. Supreme Court to remove an image of Mohammed from its mural of religious leaders, that asks for special gym hours for men and women, and which openly protests memorials of the Holocaust.

So…the thing about Muslims is that they are different. It’s not wrong or racist for us to be more on our toes when it comes to them. Some say it’s not even a religion, but a political ideology using the concept of religion as its vehicle toward political, social, and legal dominance.

And, frankly, seeing the movement toward establishing shariah law in even host democratic countries, I’d have to agree.

Books I recommend:

Surrender by Bruce Bawer

Reflections on the Revolution In Europe: Immigration, Islam, and the West

Londonistan by Melanie Phillips

I also keep posts about the boy private because I’m paranoid and frankly, it’s better for him/us to fly under the radar. There is, of course, the recent consideration that it’s unlikely he would move to my land. His job is not at all portable. Not like I previously thought. Plus he gets a killer pension…the kind of pension they don’t just hand out willy nilly anymore, NOT EVEN IN EUROPE. So lately I have been thinking about the “end goal.” In the mean time, though, I’m going to just roll with it.

Tomorrow I’m going back to healthy, low-carb food. And I’m going to start my real workouts again. Because goddamn once I’ve been in good, nay possibly very good shape, it feels like hell to regress.